Curse

tomcruisejr · Nov 14, 2006, 08:52 PM // 20:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by hyro yamaguchi

-edit double post-

your post is 234564x post of its kind.

phasola · Nov 14, 2006, 09:05 PM // 21:05

/signed ofc
But anet has more important thing to think about than PvP, like this here:
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...d.php?t=116742

B Ephekt · Nov 14, 2006, 11:05 PM // 23:05

The problem with tombs was never the party size, it was the format of the arena itself. The cap and hold mechanic is what encourages ultra defensive holding builds, this is further rewarded by the fact that there are really only two annihilation maps after Underworld… yet two other alter maps.

Tombs never needed a reduction in party size, it needed more diversity in maps, game types and win conditions. Instead of reducing the amount of players you have to work with, the format itself should discourage spikes and holding builds. With new game types and win conditions you could limit the success of anything but a balanced build, simply because spikes would lack the utility to really compete.

The hero’s susceptibility to interrupts, body blocks and energy denial need to be changed as well as the win condition for the Hall of Heroes itself. A HoH that has multiple game types and win conditions would encourage more balanced play, and put spike gimmicks and defensive builds at a disadvantage.

For those proposing two version of tombs, I know you think you’re being creative, but just stop, please. You’re failing to even think about the problems present in the tombs format, and aren’t really offering anything but overcomplicated solutions that won’t work in the first place.

6v6 was such a poorly thought out, half-assed “fix” to a problem Anet seems to be unwilling to solve, it makes me wonder what’s to come for Guild Wars pvp. Please reinstate 8v8 and fix the actually issues with the format.

Not A Fifty Five · Nov 14, 2006, 11:48 PM // 23:48

erm.. except 6 vs 6 does in fact solve it very simply. As for diversity, HA has many maps and win conditions I think anets worked hard enough on that. The ultradefnsive builds is also due to there being 3 groups fighting in the halls at once. If you go all out agressive on one, the other will destroy you. I think it should be just a one group on one group :P

B Ephekt · Nov 15, 2006, 12:08 AM // 00:08

6v6 hasn't solved anything, there are still spike builds, holding builds, fame farming builds and builds than generally take 20+ minutes to beat on non-alter maps. None of those things are fun to play or play against, and none lend anything to competitive pvp play.

Furthermore, even Izzy has said that Guild Wars pvp is balanced around 8v8, making a 6v6 arena greatly reduces the options for utility when creating builds and creates a build wars scenario.

Also, Tombs doesn't have many maps; there are only 7 before you reach halls now. And there are only 3 game types/win conditions involved in those maps: relic run, annihilation and alter. So what exactly are you talking about?

Every other aspect of this game has been updated with the new chapters, but Tombs was left to stagnate and degenerate until the 6v6 update, which, amazingly enough, caused even more players to quit (because it didn't address a single issue of the tombs format).

shardfenix · Nov 15, 2006, 12:56 AM // 00:56

Or we could go to logic class and see that PvP = player v. player, not player v. AI. It's great that you want to solo HoH with your heroes, but that's what TotPK is for. If you don't like playing with/against PLAYERS, go pve.

DIH49 · Nov 15, 2006, 01:09 AM // 01:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by shardfenix

Or we could go to logic class and see that PvP = player v. player, not player v. AI.

Actually that would be Philosophy of Language, or Semantics.

But as for the idea: I'm not categorically opposed to the idea of a 6v6 arena or a 6v6 hero arena (please note the specific distinction). So long as the maps are balanced around the format I don't really see an issue with it. I do somewhat question the purpose but that is not precisely an objection. I am however fervently for 8v8 Ha without heroes for a variety of reasons I won't go into detail on here. A quick runthrough would include points about utility and mechanism ratios, accessibility, and organization advancement.

B Ephekt makes the point about the composition of HA maps. He is, of course, correct. The format of these maps provides exponential (multiplicative?) rewards for doing better on the top maps, and the top maps all reward a certain sort of defensive strategy.

Not A Fifty Five · Nov 15, 2006, 03:47 AM // 03:47

well as i said earlier, I'm against HA having heroes, there's already Hero vs hero. Naturally few people do it because there is no reward: no ranking, and poor faction compared to ta and ra. So instead they flock to HA where they dont belong so they can get some sort of recognition for being a good player.

6 vs 6 does solve spiking groups completely, however. Its true spike groups can exist, but they suck now. Think of it this way, if you have 700 people waiting to fire a volley at once, at least 20 of them will get it in less than 1/4 second apart making the spike unstoppable. That one less spiker in 6 vs 6 makes it far more difficult to spike.

As for people quitting due to 8 vs 8 turning 6 vs 6 I'm finding more and mroe this is simply not true. They're whining their asses off and then just coming back anyways. If you took away fame farming builds I bet you'd get an even bigger outcry, even tho fame farming is stupid.

B Ephekt · Nov 15, 2006, 05:49 AM // 05:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Not A Fifty Five

6 vs 6 does solve spiking groups completely, however. Its true spike groups can exist, but they suck now. Think of it this way, if you have 700 people waiting to fire a volley at once, at least 20 of them will get it in less than 1/4 second apart making the spike unstoppable. That one less spiker in 6 vs 6 makes it far more difficult to spike.

I guess that's why I can think of at least 6 sucessful spike builds that worked in 6v6, and continue to work today. Yes, spike groups loss a signifigant amount of power, but they're still feasible with good players and a good build. 6v6 didn't address the reason spike groups were sucessful, however, which is the cap and hold mechanic; spike groups can pack in a ridiculous amount of defense while only having a bare minimum amount of offense required to score kills.

So, no, 6v6 didn't really effect spike builds "completely," or really much at all. People just don't PUG them anymore because the brainlessly simple to run builds like blood spike are now actually pretty hard to run sucessfully. Also, it's actually pretty easy for a 'balanced' build to spike effectively in 6v6.

Quote:

As for people quitting due to 8 vs 8 turning 6 vs 6 I'm finding more and mroe this is simply not true. They're whining their asses off and then just coming back anyways. If you took away fame farming builds I bet you'd get an even bigger outcry, even tho fame farming is stupid.

I'm not really sure what you're basing this off of, but over 1/2 my friends list has either quit tombing all together, or only play when specifically asked to do so. I don't generally PUG either, but the international districts have siginifgantly less people than ever before, and skips occur more regularly than in 8v8. Furthermore, my entire guild and alliance are now more interested in pve than tombs, so I seriously doubt the accuracy of your claims.

As for fame farming, I don't really care as I don't play for fame. I could care less about people only interested in winning the first few maps for emotes, instead of actually learinging enough to get solid runs (which yield more fame anyway).

The fact still remains that the 6v6 change didn't really address any of the issues that have plagued tombs, they only removed the IWAY and blood spike PUGs, which I could honestly care less about.

El_Inferno · Nov 15, 2006, 09:11 AM // 09:11

i agree on the fact that the tombs need a rollback.

its so much free fame for any a lil bit good grp running around. 8vs8 was way more fun then the 6vs6.
first we had the condition over ... and now the overload of para holdings ... great "change" of creativity as they claimed (dead iway etc)

another point is that its so pathetic that you CAN take heros into the tombs and NOT in the team arena ... wtf ...i should be the other way round -.-

Sophitia Leafblade · Nov 15, 2006, 10:09 AM // 10:09

I do agree tombs should perhaps go back to 8 Vs 8 but i dont think Heros should be taken away. Yeah i now all u seasoned PvPers dont like them but deal with it, cause the old way u elitist didnt give anyone else a chance. As u all know there is only 1 way to earn fame - HA, its next to impossible to get accepted into a ful player team there unless u have to be Rank 3 or above. I openly admit im not exactly a pro at PvP but im better than alot of players ive seen pvping. I like to experience all the different things in Gw from PvE to PvP, dont take away the 1 way us unranked people can compete and have fun (which is what what is all about) I do like the idea of have stages with in HA, ranks 0-3 ranks 4-6, ranks 6+ but i dont think there are enough players to cope with the amount of battles, unless after say 5 (including the npcs battle) u auto go up into the next stage up during the remainder of ur winning streak. They could chang the rewards slightly then so the higher the lvl ur at the more fame u get.

Lord Mendes · Nov 15, 2006, 12:19 PM // 12:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sophitia Leafblade

Yeah i now all u seasoned PvPers dont like them but deal with it, cause the old way u elitist didnt give anyone else a chance..

No1 gave me a chance, should I give you one? no!
Am I preventing you from starting/joining a team and playing HA? no!
Regardless of your rank, if you are an anti-social player will you ever join good teams? no!!!

Seriously cut this "I want heroes because elitists dont let my join teams" crap, it is pure BS and Gaile et al are actually believing it and changing HA accordingly.
You wanna HA, do something about it and don't cry about players playing with similarly ranked players.

Cass · Nov 15, 2006, 12:47 PM // 12:47

Finally registered here to add to this discussion...

I'm in favor of anything that will bring back player-vs-player 8 man old HA-style gameplay.

Fighting bots is not what I want to do. I enjoyed the full-fledged fast-paced 8vs8 of old HA. Reducing the teamsize, deleting maps and adding these bots were probably attempts to make HA seem fuller than it really is. As a result however, the number of actual players has sunk further (just look at the number of ID's), and the gameplay is a farce now.

I used to play HA a lot, and so did my guildies and the people on my friendslist. Almost everyone I know has withdrawn from HA and many have just about gone away from the game. The changes to HA have had a big impact on my game experience, and it's bad.

It's so ironic that the people who say that they like this 6v6 botfest or that say others shouldn't whine are those who either never played HA much, and thus have no real stake in it anyway, or those who abused it endlessly with IWAY fame grinding. Funny how you don't care for the gameplay you never really enjoyed to start with. I guess you can go farm greens now instead? Would you like a "xx number of greens farmed" emote with that?

Lord Mendes · Nov 15, 2006, 12:56 PM // 12:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cass

It's so ironic that the people who say that they like this 6v6 botfest or that say others shouldn't whine are those who either never played HA much, and thus have no real stake in it anyway, or those who abused it endlessly with IWAY fame grinding. Funny how you don't care for the gameplay you never really enjoyed to start with. I guess you can go farm greens now instead? Would you like a "xx number of greens farmed" emote with that?

I know its unbelievable man...
I remember just after the first weekend 6v6 people from [Eat] started posting on the forums saying that they won all their games and HA was a joke as it is and it should be 6v6. Well since it was changed i havent seen anyone from [Eat] (now [kThx]) in HA. Now they are great players no doubt about that, but I find it extremely ironic that those that wanted 6v6 arent playing it anymore, kinda sad actually. This is just an example and i mean absolutely no offense to any1 in [kThx].

pah01 · Nov 15, 2006, 01:37 PM // 13:37

The most important thing is to remove heroes and limit henchmen to two per party. Then we will see the effect on gameplay. Untill this is done we cannot have a decent discussion on which type of HA is or was beter.

There is nothing wrong with 6v6 IMO providing the teams are actually human. Stomping wammo heroes with mending is not as much fun as stomping other players.

Joe

hyro yamaguchi · Nov 15, 2006, 02:54 PM // 14:54

-_- You can discuss removing heroes/not removing heroes in 10.000 other threads. Please ,this thread is about splitting HA.

Oh and tomcruisejr, forgive me for not getting your post on top of this page :P